March 3, 2004

Just before Sean Hannity interviewed Alan Keyes on the Mar. 2 Sean Hannity Radio Show, Hannity got into a debate with Donald Dunn, Chair of the Utah Democratic Party.

Dunn, a former Clinton White House staffer, had previously disparaged Hannity in the Utah media--calling Hannity "divisive," "short-sighted," and unfair to Democrats in his book Deliver Us From Evil.

Dunn even called Hannity a "pimp for the GOP," in print.

Hannity took Dunn to task for his comments, demanding specifics. Dunn repeatedly evaded, responding with sweeping accusations and calling Hannity names--leading Hannity to conclude that Dunn was behaving like a "pimp for the DNC."

A transcript follows.

The Sean Hannity Show

Guest: Donald Dunn (Utah Democratic Party Chair)

March 2, 2004

SEAN HANNITY: We are back on the road tomorrow, Salt Lake City, our good friends over at KSL, and I was featured in an article in the Salt Lake Tribune earlier today, and among other things, there's one local resident who's considering protesting my appearance there--and that's fine, we believe in free speech on this program; we don't have any problems with that--but also quoted in the article is Donald Dunn. He's the chairman of Utah's Democratic Party. He calls me "divisive," "short-sighted" in what I talk about, and a "pimp for the GOP," and Donald Dunn now joins us on our newsmaker line. Mr. Dunn, how are you?

DONALD DUNN: I'm well. How are you today?

HANNITY: It's just typical ad hominem attack. I kind of expect it from guys like you, because that's all we've heard from the Democratic Party, attacking the president daily, calling him a liar, etc., etc., so it doesn't surprise me. I can handle it.

Let me ask you a question. How much do you know about this program? How often do you listen?

DUNN: Well, you know, I guess listening to it in short increments is about all I can handle, so, ah . . .

HANNITY: Yeah, but have you . . .

DUNN: I've got to do it in doses.

HANNITY: But have you listened often?

DUNN: You know, I have listened enough to see that, you know, what I find interesting about you is that I honestly can't tell if when you're lying and talking about things, whether you ignorantly believe them, or if you just don't care.

HANNITY: Okay. Well, now, let me ask you this. That's fine. What have I ever said, in your view, specifically, that is divisive? Considering you went to the Salt Lake City Tribune, and you answered their questions about me, what have I ever said, specifically, that's divisive?

DUNN: Well, you know, I think, when you look at the sources that you use, like Matt Drudge and other less reputable sources, I hope that your listeners recognize that I think your show is purely for entertainment purposes, and shouldn't be seen as a reliable source of information.

HANNITY: You meant Matt Drudge who got the semen stain dress right and everything about Bill Clinton? Is that what you--Matt Drudge . . .

DUNN: Well, you know . . .

HANNITY: Wait, wait. Matt Drudge, who links to every major newspaper in the country, every major columnist? The majority of what Matt does is linking major stories that are in the news from other sources.

DUNN: Well, you know what I think you are, Sean, is I think that you are to talk radio what the National Inquirer is to the print media.

HANNITY: OK, so that's now the fourth attack you've made against me, and you call me divisive in this. I have not attacked you yet--although I'm about to basically expose you for being guilty of the very thing you're accusing me of.

You say--first of all, have you ever heard me being critical of the GOP? Because you call me a "pimp for the GOP." Have you ever heard my regular criticism of when I disagree with the Republican Party?

DUNN: Well, you know, I think that, you know, you are a part of some of the conservatives that I think maybe are so far right that they're going after George Bush on certain things.

HANNITY: I didn't ask you that question. Have you ever heard me--you called me a name, you called me in a newspaper article a "pimp for the GOP." Have you ever heard me specifically be critical of the GOP on important issues of the day?

DUNN: My mom and dad taught me that the bullies on the playground, like you, are the ones that like to stir things up and, and . . .

HANNITY: Uh, huh. That's the fifth attack. That's a nice ad hominem attack. You call me a bully. Can you answer my question? Have you ever heard me, ever--you called me a name, sir, now you've added another name to the mix. You're calling me a bully. Have you ever heard, have you ever, ever heard me be critical of the GOP about their policies? Yes or no. Can you answer the question?

DUNN: Sean, why don't you show the love for the more than 19,305 Utah workers who've become unemployed since Bush took office?

HANNITY: Uh, huh. OK, we can talk about unemployment later, after you answer my question. Have you ever heard me specifically be critical of the GOP that you say I pimp for?

DUNN: You know, I've heard you been critical of, uh, I've heard you . . .

HANNITY: Name the issue.

DUNN: Well, you know, I've heard you, you've been critical on lots of things that I think . . .

HANNITY: Like, for example?

DUNN: You know, I was listening to you before we . . .

HANNITY: Can you name one? Can you name one?

DUNN: Well, if you let me finish.

HANNITY: Because you haven't answered a question yet. I'm asking you specific questions.

DUNN: Well, we can both play the same game that you play every day, when you just, you know, attack the far-left and the liberals and talk about the [unintelligible].

HANNITY: Attack? Why don't you call me a bully and a pimp, but can you answer the question? Where have I been critical of the GOP that you say I pimp for?

DUNN: Well, all you need to do is just turn on the radio, and hear you every day.

HANNITY: OK, now can . . .

DUNN: But fortunately, fortunately for me, I don't listen to your show every day, because, you know, like I said, I have to take it in doses.

HANNITY: So, if you don't listen to me, how can you make an accusation if you don't even know the answer to the question? Because, sir . . .

DUNN: [unintelligible]

HANNITY: Hang on a second. You may learn something here, Mr. Dunn. Before you go forward with your latest ad hominem attack, I've been very critical of Republicans when they're wrong. I think they're spending too much money in Washington, I don't like where they stood on immigration, I don't like where they stand on campaign finance, I don't believe we should have a new entitlement program known as prescription drugs. I've also said we ought to be more supportive of Israel. Have you ever heard me at length talk about those issues, or do you just make ad hominem attacks in newspapers without any specificity?

DUNN: In the times that I've heard you, you've been very divisive about working families in America, and I take personal offense to that, as working families . . .

HANNITY: That's not what you said in the newspaper. You said I'm a pimp for the GOP, and I gave you seven specific examples where I regularly criticize the GOP. In other words, your criticism is wrong, and it was an ad hominem attack. Isn't that unfair?

DUNN: You know what, Sean, I think good for you that you can be critical of your party at times.

HANNITY: All right, but now you also accuse me of being divisive. Do you ever accuse Democrats of being divisive?

DUNN: You know, I think that uh, I think that in politics, that people can be divisive, but you know, what I want to ask . . .

HANNITY: No, no, no, no. I asked you a question. Do you ever accuse Democrats, your party, of being divisive? Because you've accused me of being divisive.

DUNN: Does that hurt your feelings, Sean?

HANNITY: No, I'm asking you. Do you ever accuse Democrats . . .

DUNN: Let's talk about the issues. That's what I want to talk about.

HANNITY: No, the issue is your attack on me in the newspaper, and you call me divisive, and I'm asking if you ever call Democrats divisive.

DUNN: You get paid the big bucks, and I think that you're a big kid, so I think that you ought to grow up past, you know, being called a name, and let's talk about some issues.

HANNITY: Well, Donald, you're the one that went to the newspaper and called me names. You're the one that said I was short-sighted, you're the one that called me divisive, and you're the one that called me a pimp. So, when I challenge you to back up your statement and corroborate it, you can't do it, and that's why you divert attention from every question so far I've asked you.

So, I'll ask you again: are Democrats ever divisive? Do you ever criticize them the way you criticize me?

DUNN: Did it hurt your feelings, Sean?

HANNITY: Can you answer the question?

DUNN: Why do you equate liberalism with evil?

HANNITY: I'll answer your question as soon as you answer mine. Is it--when Al Gore said to the American people that George Bush betrayed his country and took this country on an ill-conceived foreign adventure that was preordained and planned before 9-11 took place, is that divisive?

DUNN: Well, you know, I think that when you're a spokesperson for the far-right, which I think you are . . . .

HANNITY: Wait, was what Al Gore said divisive? Mister, can you answer any question?

DUNN: You know, you and I--I'd rather have the conversation on you and you and the issues that you try to talk about, but, you know, I think what happens here, Sean . . .

HANNITY: Do you realize what a fool you sound like? You cannot answer a single question.

Was it divisive when Ted Kennedy said this president concocted a war for political gain and benefit, it was a fraud made up in Texas? Was it divisive when your chairman, Terry McAuliffe, without any substantiation accused our president of being AWOL? Was it divisive, Mr. Dunn, when Howard Dean put forward the theory that the president was warned about 9-11 ahead of time?

You're going to sit there in the Salt Lake Tribune and lecture me, and not have the decency or fairness to criticize your own party? Would I be wrong in concluding, sir, that you are nothing but a pimp for the Democratic National Committee, sir?

DUNN: Oh, you know, Sean, I think I got under your skin.

HANNITY: I think, "check mate." I just think I made you look like the fool that you are and the hypocrite you are.

DUNN: You know what I think, Sean, when you come here to Utah that you might fight in with the right-wing Republicans who don't seem to think that there should be a two-party system.

HANNITY: I believe in a two-party system. You went in a newspaper, you leveled this attack against me, and all I pointed out here is what a double-standard shill you are for the Democratic Party. I have given you specifics where I disagree with my party, and have been outspoken on these airwaves every day. When you challenge me for being divisive, I say, "Is there a double-standard in your criticism?" I've talked about your party members that have made unsubstantiated allegations against our president, and you defend them, and you defend them to the hilt. So, I can only conclude that you are the very thing you've accused me of, sir. I didn't make this attack against you, you made it against me.

DUNN: How do you really feel about it, Sean?

HANNITY: Well, I feel like, I feel like pretty much this is "check mate."

DUNN: Oh, well, I'm glad that you think that, because I think when you continue to go on every day, and you talk about . . .

HANNITY: I know, "Blah, blah, blah."

DUNN: Exactly! That's exactly it.

HANNITY: Yeah. But can't you see . . .

DUNN: And I think that . . .

HANNITY: But wait a minute. Don't you see? Here your party accuses the president of knowing about 9-11 ahead of time, and you don't have the courage to say that's wrong!

Here your party says that the president concocted a war for political gain, and you don't have the courage to say, "Mr. Kennedy, that's over the line." When Al Gore screams at the top of his lungs that George Bush betrayed his country and planned Iraq before 9-11 ever happened, you won't criticize your party. If my party did that, I would abandon them.

And that's the difference between you and me. That's the difference between somebody who is a pimp for their party, like you, and somebody who's intellectually honest, like me.

DUNN: Well, Sean, I think that your job is to sell books and to be an entertainment factor, and I think it is . . .

HANNITY: And expose people like you for being the hypocrites you are.

DUNN: Well, you know, I think, Sean, that, you know, clearly--my grandpa used to tell me, "If the shoe fits, wear it," and I think that this shoe fits you.

HANNITY: I think the shoe fits YOU.

DUNN: Well . . .

HANNITY: Tell me, give me three areas where you disagree and are openly critical of Democrats.

DUNN: Where I disagree with Democrats?

HANNITY: Yeah, where, where, where. And show me, on the record, where you have criticized them.

DUNN: You know what? Sean, I'm not going to give you any more fodder to just twist and turn.

HANNITY: Because you can't.

DUNN: What I want to talk about, as it relates to Utah, because you're coming here.

HANNITY: I'm coming here, and I--why don't you come on stage with me? I'll invite you. See, unlike you liberals, I'll debate you. This is like easy pickings for me. Why don't you come on the stage tomorrow night when I'm in Salt Lake City, and let's let the crowd decide who's the hypocrite, let's let the crowd decide who's divisive, let's let the crowd decide who's the pimp for what party. You wanna do that?

DUNN: If you split the proceeds of what you make tomorrow, maybe I'll consider doing that.

HANNITY: I'm not getting paid one single solitary cent for my appearance tomorrow.

DUNN: With your book sales that you're doing--you know, your job, you're doing a great job at what you have to do, and that's to create attention to sell your book.

HANNITY: No, my book is, sir, it's number one in the New York Times thanks to the greatest audience. I'm not selling my book, but you know what I don't like? I don't like that you don't know me, you don't know what I stand for, you don't even hardly, by your own admission, listen to this program, you call me names in a newspaper article, and you are guilty for the exact thing you accuse me of--and you can't see it. The audience can see it, but you can't see it. That's amazing to me.

DUNN: Sean, what I'd like to focus on, because you've talked about this, and I've heard you talk about this, is that, you know, with economic development and with health care and issues that aren't being talked about. Did you know that in Utah 15,000 people lost manufacturing jobs since Bush took office?

HANNITY: You know something? Then the people of Utah are going to decide whether or not George Bush deserves another term--but I will tell you this. For a president that inherited an recession, for a president that had the worst attack on our land in our history, for a president that gave Americans back more of their money, to have the greatest quarter of economic growth in twenty years, I'd run on that record verses any other record you want to put out there. I think that's what the debates ought to be about.

But unlike you, I didn't go out in the Salt Lake City Tribune and attack you with an ad hominem, mean-spirited attack the way you did me today--and I think, if you had any decency in you, you ought to apologize for the things you said in that paper today.

DUNN: Do you know what I apologize for? I apologize for the rhetoric that people have to listen from you every day.

HANNITY: Yeah, but, so it's OK for you--give me one specific example of rhetoric that was over the line, because I can give you rhetoric from all of your party leaders. I mean, you're worried about my rhetoric. I don't hear you criticizing Howard Dean for putting forward the theory the president was pre-warned about 9-11. Will you criticize that rhetoric? Will you criticize Terry McAuliffe's rhetoric about the president being AWOL without any evidence? Will you criticize Dennis Kucinich, who accused him of assassinating civilians? Will you be critical of that rhetoric? Oh, you don't like rhetoric only when it comes from conservatives--is that how you Democrats work?

DUNN: You know what, Sean? They're not coming to Utah tomorrow, and you are.

HANNITY: Oh, OK.

DUNN: So, so, I deal with what's coming into Utah, and I'm dealing with the fact that, you know, you're out stumping for the GOP, stumping for George Bush . . .

HANNITY: Sir? Sir?

DUNN: And I want Utahns, I want . . .

HANNITY: Sir, no, no. That's another lie, and you're not going to get away with it on this program. I, sir, I represent myself. I'm an independent-thinking conservative, and unlike you, I criticize my party when they're wrong, and I will stand up to them when they're wrong, and I don't hear you doing that, in spite of the fact that I've given you every opportunity on this program to condemn the hate speech and the irresponsible politicizing of a war by the leaders of your party.

DUNN: You know what I condemn?

HANNITY: I can hardly wait.

DUNN: I condemn the divisiveness that you pontificate on every day, and talking about, you know, your great reliable sources, talking about how evil liberals are, talking about how . . .

HANNITY: Sir, did you even read my book?

DUNN: You know, I actually . . .

HANNITY: Did you read it or not?

DUNN: I'm waiting for it to come to the library, so I don't have to give you any royalties.

HANNITY: So you--OK. You didn't read my book, so how do you know? Do you judge every book by its cover?

DUNN: You know what, Sean . . .

HANNITY: Typical. Typical liberal.

DUNN: We wish you well coming to Utah.

HANNITY: I'll be there. Now here's my last question. I gotta go. Will you come on the stage with me tomorrow night?

DUNN: You know, maybe we'll think about that, if we get a cut in the proceeds that you're getting from tomorrow.

HANNITY: I'm not getting--I am not getting paid for my appearance.

DUNN: Well, that's not what we were told.

HANNITY: No, I'm not getting--the only thing, oh, my transportation is paid for. I do not get one single cent, myself, in my pocket for this appearance tomorrow. Period.

DUNN: Yeah. Well, we welcome you to Utah. We want to make sure . . .

HANNITY: So, you can apologize for that misinformation, too.

DUNN: Oh, come on, Sean. Have thicker skin, would ya?

HANNITY: Hey, Don, listen to me, buddy. Don't be so mean-spirited, and don't take ad hominem shots at people if you can't take a little bit back. Because you know what? You picked this fight with me, you're the one that took shots at me, and all I'm doing is defending myself, and I've exposed you for being guilty of the very thing you've accused me of, and that's what you don't like. But if you want to come tomorrow, you give us a call. You're welcome to come up on stage with us, all right?

DUNN: All right.

HANNITY: I gotta run. Thank you. 1-800-941-SEAN is our toll-free number. We'll continue.